The following questions would be very illuminating if directed to the Corps and our political leaders who set guidelines for level control at Lake Thurmond.
1) How much money has been spent by downstream concerns due to reduced river flows from Lake Thurmond.
2) What would it cost for Augusta to reroute their drinking water intakes so they tapped into purer water (the extreme here would be to run a line all the way to the dam).
5) What would it cost the paper companies and other companies with similar waste effluents to clean up their waste so that minimum water flows matching only incoming rainfall during a drought would be sufficient for their needs.
6) The nuclear power plants downstream should have plans in place for operation at reduced river flows. SRP for example used Par Pond for reactor cooling and was not susceptable to low river flows. What additional costs would be involved to operate with only the water coming in from rainfall during a drought.
7) What did the coast line interests do prior to building the dam to prevent salt water incursions and wild life problems. What would it cost for them to build locks etc to prevent these problems in the future if we only send downstream the water coming in from rainfall during a drought.
8) What is a good estimate for the cost in real estate, business, and recreational interests around Lakes Thurmond and Hartwell when levels are allowed to drop more than 5ft below normal fill. The enlightening thing about this question would be to see if they have an answer.
If we start a petition to ask these questions would you be willing to sign it?
12 comments:
We need to have a meeting !
I am always stunned by the Corps attitude towards the public.They are not willing to do anything to help out with our severe lake levels. When we ask about other lakes like lake Oconee, they say Georgia power doesn't care about downriver environmental concerns. Well I haven't heard a word about any problems there. As for the sturgeon in the Savannah River, they are in the best shape in decades,so are the striped bass. I have to agree with another writer in wondering why the lake is in such a dredful situation when our rainfall was not that bad last year. We didn't have a drought last year but look at the lake levels. Sure we were below average slightly, but nothing as severe as the levels would indicate. We need legislation, because the Corps will not do anything without it. I suggested to Charlie Norwood that we get some type of bill passed that allows for a mechanism of change. As it is right now you have to have an act of congress to make the corps do anything. They operate with total immunity. They simply don't & won't listen to anyone & get aggressively defensive when the public, who by the way funds them, voice any cincern or have questions. We absolutely have to have them subget to an overseeing board with a touch of reality. I thought we are supposed to be operating under the "of the people by the people and for the people" assumption. The people are as near to 100% for better lake level as you can get. Where is our representation? Our politicians have been busy lately with all our country's problems, but think about the people on the lake who depend on the lake for a living. These people are all on the brink of looseing everything they have. Many have already done so. Anyone needing to sale property on the lake is in a real bad situation. They are being hit from every direction. The main problem with buyers is their lack in confidence that the lake level will ever come back. This lake level problem must be solved and solved guickly without permanent loss in lake values. If you compare values to lake Oconee you will see that their
values are much higher than ours. The main reason is they have a consistent lake level and don't have to abide by such stringent rules laid out by the Corps. Don't get me wrong, the Corps does do a great job of managing much of our natural resources, just not our lake levels! The people, bussinesses, and losses in taxes are in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The loss in taxes and property values has just begun. I know for sure there are going to be many foreclosure in the coming months. They have already begun and many more are on the way. I have also been hearing that it costs more than a dollar for the corps to generate adollar of electricity. As for the loss of money and coming foreclosures on the lake, I have first hand knowledge of it's validity. I think we need an investigation on the profit margin for generating electricity. If this is true we could bust the lid off the lake level issue. Let's set up our first meeting to begin the process of fair government "of the people buy the people and for the people"
Hello
I just left the meeting in Lincolnton, and there is an awful lot of things I agree with.
The Lake outflow should never exceed the Lake inflow.
Mother nature shouldn't be trifled with to help the sturgeon. Those are just two things that come to mind right off hand.
On the other hand I think we do an awful lot of complaining.
I like many others own property adjacent to Lake Thurmond. And yes, absolutely my property value has decreased. but, I look at it like the stock market. It's a gamble, and I knew it when I bought property here. The whole existence of Thurmond has been an up and down affair. When I purchased nobody gave me a guarantee that ten years from that purchase date my property value would increase.
I know one thing, and that's this. Even in these trying times I could sell and get every penny back that I ever spent for the land and the house. And to me that's all I could ever ask for or expect. Anything over that amount would be a blessing, but I don't expect it. If you find this not to be true in your case, maybe you overspent in the first place.
The Corps allows me to have a dock, and yes mine is sitting on dry land right now. But, the fact that I have one is due in part to the Corps granting me that privilege. They could have said no. And that would have been the end of that. And they told me I could chase the water as much as I wanted to. That alone let me know the lake wasn't gonna be at a stable level. I look at it for what it is. It's Government property that they allow me to use almost like it's mine. No different than me applying for a permit to park on Fort Gordon. It's Government property what's the difference? So I get my permit, and park there the majority of the time, then raise a stink because my parking space is unavailable from time to time. Most of the time this lake is at a very usable level. What most are complaining about is that unavailable parking space. And that inconvenience of having to do things differently. I drive over the Little River Bridge, and there is an awful lot of water still in this lake. You should look at it from above. Let's say from about 6000 feet. The 18 feet we are complaining about is just a drop in the bucket.
What would we have if there were no system of dams? We'd of course have the Savannah River, and with the lack of rain over the past three years, there wouldn't be a lot of that. Without the dam, Lincoln county would in affect become the new Taliferro County. Let's don't put all our eggs in one basket, and become so dependent and petty that 18 feet low devastates us.
You should be in my shoes as like alot of others I depend on this lake to feed my family. The lake levels have put a hurting on my buisness.It all falls down hill, lands not selling, im not building docks, inturn my guys arent working as much no one spends money when they arent working. We have got to get something done, there has to be a way to work this out and make it work everyone had some great ideas maybe things can get put into action.
Let's keep this as civil as possible. I just seem to find myself on the opposite side of the fence. So I'm gonna bring up some points, and you guys fire back, and maybe I'll see things differently as maybe you will.
My job too is on the proverbial bubble. I don't have that warm cozy feeling like I used to have. My job is extremely specialized, and if it goes away, I'll have to completely change my field or move to follow the job. My job has nothing to do with the lake, so in that respect it could be over the banks and I'd be in the same predicament.
The economy is just awful.
I looked in the yellow pages this morning and found at least five different numbers for dock builders here in Lincolnton alone. How many more are there? Wilkes County? Elbert? In a perfect world with the Lake being full was there enough dock building to keep everybody going? Don't take that question the wrong way, I'm truly asking. If it was, I'm good with that, more power to you.
It seems to me in being a dock builder, you have to be a true tradesman. Working the metal for the frame of the dock, welding. Working the wood material for the decking, carpentry. Lot's of docks I see now a days have roofs, so your well versed in sheet metal roofing. That's three very viable options for making a living.I wish I was capable of just one of the three. Me on the other hand, I'm a one horse show, what I know is the only thing I know. It's my fault, nobody to blame but me.
If you read this and your blood pressure rises, let me assure you that is not my intent. If I'm missing the boat, please educate me. I'll listen.
If I have to get a job at circle K I'll hunker down and make it.
Lake rat,
I think you are missing the boat just a bit. The lake, which we are very fortunate to have, is our #1 industry & should be viewed as such. Our lake is the entire driving force behind our local economy and many. many of our local businesses. We all depend on the lake and it's ripple effect for tax revenues, dock builders, real estate sales, boat sales, tourism, etc. Our concern is with the MISMANAGEMENT of our precious natural resource. This is comparable to the mismanagement of a corproation in which you worked and the effect it may have on your compensation or even employment at all. You, and every other employee would, and should speak out and demand new management! The private sectors recognizes and corrects poor management on it's own, we don't have that remedy here.
I take issue with comments like, without the dam we'd be this & all of our eggs in one basket...We do have the dam and the lake, no need to discuss what if's. We are simply doing what millions of Americans have done for generations, use our best natural resources to provide a living for our families and to grow our economy. We are not asking for anything else. I can attest to the fact that when lake levels are full, there is more than enough revenue generated to support each and every business you found in the yellow pages. This what we want and need. A growing economy with competition in the market place. Let the market determine who should and should not be in business, not the lake levels. A free market will always correct itself if left alone.
As for property values, each and every property owner is in a unique situation. Some can recover their investments, some can still make a profit, but most can not sell at all right now. Taking those who overpaid out of the equation, I can give you a list a mile long of those who made sound purchases who are not even able to sell now if they wanted to. In a society that values property rights and ownership, it is unimaginable to think that a governmental agency is so unwilling to listen to the concerns of our people.
AS for the 18 feet being a drop in the bucket... Call Lincoln County's Water Dept & ask them. Had we not spent our own tax dollars to lower our intake some time ago we would have NO access to drinking water today. That is no drop in the bucket. As it stands now, with the lower levels and higher silt content it is currently much more expensive to treat the water as well. The list goes on and on. The effects of the low levels are so far reaching that I could not even begin to touch all of them here.
The problems are real, the people are real and I hope you understand we are not making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I appreciate everyones input, but we need people working together, not splitting hairs with each other. All we are asking for is reduced flows, not too much in my opinion.
On a lighter note, IT'S RAINING!!!
There is mismanagement of the lake levels, period. Maybe you bought long enough ago to sale and make money. If so you are lucky. I can't believe you compare it to the stock market. Those who bought in the past few years paid a fair market value at the time. Their values will come back. Some don't have the time. The corps has said that the lake belongs to the people and they are simply the managers. So why do you feel so humble as to their giving you the priviledge of a dock. You would not have bought knowing you could not have a dock. Why can't we focus on getting our water back. Everyone agrees not to blame the corps rather to focus on getting new mandates so they can help the people. Remember we are the people in a democracy and the people are overwhelmingly for changes in an outdated mode of operation. It has been proven that the corps should consider downriver water flows. If your job did depend on the lake you may already be at circle k and your house may be for sale at a price that may shock you. So show some compassion, it may help your inner soul.
Thank you C Turner for you comment. Really I understand, and like I said before, maybe I'm missing the point. And on a lighter note, yes it is raining, and I feel strongly that today the Corps should modify the outflow at the dam. There is a lot of run off happening below the dam today, and hence forth the outflow up here should reflect it. I'm 100% on board with that.
Someone brought up the idea that they'd like to see the lake level stay in between five feet. Now that would be nice. I just wonder, and the Corps could field this question.
Lets just say for discussion that the lake was five feet low, and we had a monsoon that lasted for a week. That's not to far fetched. Is there a point, where the corps lets the water out as hard as it can go, without flooding Augusta, but still loses ground? Is that why they draw it down in the winter? Is there just more to it than we realize?
I try to look at both sides. The lake is five down. It's raining cats and dogs. The Corps is letting go as much water as possible without flooding Augusta. The lake is still filling. The Corps has no choice but to let more water go to avoid a dam breech. Augusta floods. A week later after the water recedes the people of Augusta have the same meeting that we had last night. But this time it's from there prospective. It's why did the Corps let this happen to us? Why didn't they draw down the lake in preparation for the extra rain. It's the norm that we get a hefty rain every winter.
All I'm trying to say is I bet it's one beast of a responsibility to run and keep everyone semi happy.
It was brought to my attention and I don't know if this is right or wrong so somebody chime in. The Savannah River below Lock and Dam is not full. What everyone sees, is the area between our dam and the locks. (The area around River Walk.) I think by what people see when they go to Augusta is deceiving, they think that's the way it looks all the way to Savannah, and I don't think that's the case. (I have to admit I thought it was full all the way.) I was informed that even the Three Lakes used for cooling at the Savannah River Plant aren't full.
Lake Man,
Please bare with me, my purpose is not to offend, and I see the Turner Realty icon with your post. Just enlighten me if possible.
I have to compare the real estate to the stock market. It works the same way. The object of the game is to buy low, and sell high. Nobody wants to loose money, but in a bad economy it happens. And without a doubt we're in a bad economy.
There are two types of property owners on the lake. The old lake people, and the new lake people.
The old lake people have been here since the beginning, up to the mid eighties. They bought property at a fair market value. I'm sure that in today's times people think we stole it. Well back then the lake wasn't that popular, and prices were reasonable.
I would have loved to ask the question last night "how many people have been affected by real estate running wild and unchecked. "
My example is this, and there's a whole lot of people that will agree with me. Real estate has taken way more out of my pocket than the lake being low. A lot sells in my neighborhood the owner is pleased because he just pocketed four times what he paid for it in the first place. (sounds an awful lot like the stock market to me) I'm proud for him that he did as well as he did. Then because of his good fortune the county decides that my property evaluation is to low. Bam I'm hit with higher taxes. The trend never stops. Every year it's the same thing. The property around here is selling for way more than it's worth. And it's out of control. A prime example from last night the fellow from Stillwater Cove. with the story about the developer going under. Did I get that right 345 lots? Why did it start with such a high number of lots. Why not 50, and if that does well let's add on some more. The lands not going anywhere, let's not pave 25 miles of road and run water lines everywhere. No somebody had get rich quick on there minds. Savannah Bay. When it opened it sold like hotcakes. Oooops there goes my taxes up again. And nobody built. It was mostly people from out of state and around Atlanta speculating, that Thurmond was gonna become the new Lanier. Better get in now why the price is low, and sell later for a profit. Now the county gets involved. Hmmmm, that went pretty well at Savannah Bay, lets do it again. So all over the county they start springing up. Serenity Point, Long Leaf, and the list goes on. The property was marketed mostly through magazines and out of state advertising. People flocked to one day sales. Keep in mind that the lake was full and people bought without knowing the lay of the land. They bought on sight alone. Shame on them. But once again my taxes go up. And the new lake people are no where to be found. I pay higher taxes in Lincoln County than people in West Lake, and it's a gated community, and I'm stuck in the stone age with dial up internet. Somethings broken, and it just isn't the lake.
Oh boy, we're really cooking now, lets build a new school to the tune of 22 million to handle all the new peoples kids.
As the population continues to decline. I'll bet that just a million of those dollars spent at the water treatment plant would get the intakes far enough out.
It's not really the lake level that's stirring everybody up. It's the fact that everyone now thinks there sitting on a half million dollar piece of property. Real estate has effectively chummed the water. Now everyone has the taste for blood. My half million dollar nest egg is only worth 200,000.00 which in all actuality is what it was worth in the first place.
The county should be ashamed for letting things like Long Leaf happen. They new that in a perfect world the level in that cove was no deeper than 8 feet. Every body familiar with the lake knew it. I guess that's why nobody from here bought.
Real Estate has effectively built itself a mountain, and now has nowhere to go. To save it, let's blame it on the low lake level. If the lake comes up we'll be in high cotton again. And what do the old lake people get? Higher taxes of course, and a pristine lake headed toward overcrowding just like the Atlanta lakes.
Like I said in the beginning, my intent is not to offend. You just happen to be involved in Real Estate.
The Lake has been up and down since it was first damed. It'll come back, I have no doubt that it will. I've seen it with my own eyes at least five times. It's just extremely dry right now, and nobody can argue that fact.
I know I got off the subject but I think that more than the lake level is actually behind this.
I was not trying to sound out if place with my coment if it offended anyone im sorry we have to stick together one this and if I have to go to work at circle k i will im not below doing that to provide for my family. There is a fix for this I understand everyone is not gonna agree on everything. This is my buisness i worked hard to get it going I just would hate to lose it due to lake levels. The lady spoke about getting loans to finish sending her girl to school I have a 10 year old and twins on the way, by the time I lose everything I want be able to get a loan to send mine to school so if any of the Reps. from the meeting read this try thinking about the loads of people who have the same problem due to the lake levels. Lets work together on this and fix it everyone has there reasons for the lake the man who worked hard all his life to retire on the lake and fish everyday deserves a full lake as much as the people that make a liveing off this lake.
To Harris Custom Docks.
Mr. Harris I presume. You have my utmost respect. No offense taken in any way. I see from your comment that you like me will do anything you have to do to make ends meet.
You were able to keep this discussion on the fair and square without loosing your cool. I'd do business with you any day.
Lake Rat,
I'd love to have a one on one conversation with you because some of the things in your reply to Lake man are completely offensive and misdirected. I don't know you at all and am not judging you, but I take much offense to several of your comments and this is not the place for that kind of discussion.
I want for all of us to work together to save our lake, nothing else. We need a change in the management of our lake for the sake of all our local residents/business owners. I don't know how anyone can disagree with that...
By the way, I'm sure we are ALL willing to do whatever necessary to provide for our families in tough economic times, I think that goes without saying.
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